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@geraldb78 Going to play pendant here; but we're not actually ''taking'' assets from Daz, Rendo, etc - we part with real world money for them, because firstly, we wish to buy them for our own projects and secondly, in order that we share them here. 🙂
IMO, real money is far, far more important than the virtual daily points that quite a lot of people are whingeing about.
Not interested in paying for paying for a subscription model when I fill a request. That is stupid. The people (like myself) shouldn't be penalised for filling requests. I buy assets that I want to use - first off. It shouldn't be up to the admins to buy assets (and determine which ones they buy for the site).
I have a few assets that I brought that I've never uploaded. I can give some of those to new people for them to earn some points (they would need to host it).
The system works. Some people need to stop complaining about not getting 100 points per day (no offense to those that are new to the site). There is ways of getting points - by filling requests and posting assets to the blog. That is how it has been. All of us started off with very little points. I've been here for over 5 years (and I know others have been here longer)
Hmm. If I have to pay real money for a subscription or points or whatever.
I may as well just buy the assets and not share them instead.
Surely the way to move forward is to reward those that share and those that don't maybe have to buy points or earn them slowly by "contributing" to forums etc.I'm not complaining about daily points, in fact I see them as a negative.
Contribution points are far more useful IMHO.Just my 2c.
Some thoughts to get lost in this growing pile:
CGPeers has been operating for 10+ years and still going strong without any limitations on reuploading the content people uploaded there. Just can't share a direct torrent from the tracker or you get autobanned. Hell, there's a good number of people here on Zone that are also in there judging by the timing of some uploads.
CGPeers has a supreme number of moochers and snatchers too in recent years, but it's the tax to pay for having a relatively open system to promote sharing. There hasn't been a tangible benefit to uploading content on CGPeers for more than 4 years now! Yet people still do it. I do it to benefit others like how I benefitted.
A system where you 'pay it forward' will always survive longer than a system where users feel entitled about their own uploads. That's something that anyone who has been around pirate communities for the last 20 years can attest to. The tricky thing is to get a community to the point where it can self sustain on that system alone.
The biggest downfall of a pirate and his community is ego.
This idea that others OWE them something for their uploads...when they've already benefitted from the community themselves. That doesn't mean they don't deserve gratitude, but it cannot take the form of a tiered HAVE/HAVE-NOT system.
This leads to internal subcommunities and hurts the bottom line. We've already seen this here on ZGFX a couple years ago with certain content being shared with certain subgroups only. Maybe it still happens, I haven't kept up.
I firmly believe a torrent tracker system as the backbone of the site would be the best long term solution, with regular download links being an additional feature one can pay into with Points/other contributions to the community (look at ads maybe?). But it's a pipe dream.
No matter what, I will still obsessively check in every day 🙂
Hello, everyone. First of all, apologies for this wall of text. I have been reflecting about the recent changes and the reasons which have led to them. As I understand it, the real problem is not the people who ocasionally download some assets and don’t upload anything (like me); we surely must be annoying -at the very least- for some uploaders, but I think the people to blame for this changes are the leechers who reupload the assets on other sites for their own profit.
As @Frank21 said, even restricting item downloads according to the users’ level would not prevent this from happening; there must be some high level accounts with lots of points who are to blame, so even going private the issue would persist. I’m not saying at all that all the leechers are high level accounts, but there must be a nonzero amount of them and I consider them critical.
Identifying this people -to whom I will refer as moles from now on- is very hard, but if I am not too wrong about how the site works perhaps there could be a way to do it, requiring a (hopefully) small amount of technical changes, but a considerable collaborative effort from the uploading community; it would take time and it would be hard, but this is a hard problem and hard problems rarely have easy solutions. I understand now that the staff resources are limited and the solution would require of everyone’s help.
So, let’s get to the point: I recently read the thread about how Renderotica and RenderHub have started time-tracking the downloaded assets to identify the source of the contents leaked onto sites like ZoneGFX by procedurally time-stamping some of the files. Clever stuff. They surely have given a lot of thought to trying to solve pretty much this same problem. Could ZoneGFX do the same? Obviously not, since there is not a central server where all the files are hosted and the staff probably would not have the time and resources to do it, even if that server existed. However, maybe there is a chance to fight fire with fire, or deception with deception in this case; let´s say someone wants to upload a file:
First of all, I would watermark the promo files with a ZoneGFX logo or something like that. A mole could change the images but, well, make them work a bit at least.
2- Make a small, imperceptible change to any file or files you want within the asset and upload it. A character on a text file, a pixel on a thumbnail, whatever you are technically capable of, and keep it to yourself. This two steps break the recommendation of keeping the files as they were downloaded, but I suggest this for the greater good.
3- Upload the file, so people can start downloading it. Here is where the only technical change should be made: currently, as @Paul(Fuzzy3000) explained me, once you download the file the link remains visible for 30 days. What I sugeest is the links to remain visible for no more than 24 hours. I know now that the database is capable of “remembering” for 30 days that you have access to that link. The point is not making people pay again for it after 24 hours, it is just that they have to claim it again, leaving a log of their action. I suppose that if the database “knows” that you still have access to the link, it could show you the link again at zero cost. The goal is that the link does not remain visible and you have to actively decrypt it again. Why?
4- The crux of all this is that the uploader keeps making small changes like that every day, every two days, or every week, as he/she sees fit, updating the download link. The more often, the better. This is the collaborative effort I mentioned earlier. This way, depending on when you download the file, you get one version or another. Each uploader should change whatever he wants, at random, so there is no methodical approach to determining what has been changed. A procedural method like RenderHub’s is way more efficient, but also much more predictable. They may have the technical means, but we have enough people to make something more chaotic and harder to circumvent, even if it is by sheer numbers. We are way many more than them. A mole could download the same file every day to compare differences but:
4a) it would be quite laborious.
4b) since the original file has never been uploaded there would always be at the very least a changed file which has nothing to be compared to.
4c) having to claim the download for the same file repeatedly in a short time window would leave a VERY suspicious track.
4d) The mole could try mixing files from several consecutive downloads to throw the uploader off his scent, but apart from leaving the mentioned track you could always know at the very least one of the dates when he downloaded it.5- Now, just wait for the file to be leaked, download it and see which files have been changed (and how) to identify the time window when the mole accessed the file. Report it to hunter or whoever would be responsible for this to find out which users downloaded the file within this period.
6- A report alone would be of little use, but if enough people do the same, combined whith the logs of the files accessed many times by the same account in a short period, you could end up finding sufficiently repeated accounts and build solid evidence to ban them, even high level ones. Also, you would neither have to do this with every upload nor do it everyday if you don't want to; you could just update randomly making the mole re-claim the link in vain, and or focus just on the juiciest or priciest uploads.
That’s the gist of it. I know it is a lot, but it is the best I’ve been able to come up with. I'll stop pestering you with more suggestions. Hope this somehow helps, whether it is the way I intend it to or not.
Best regards,
Keab, when will the irony of a pirate advocating for a form of DRM on stolen content from being shared hit 😀
We need to shed our egos.
It is basically axiomatic that the effort in implementing that kind of thing is far greater than the way to circumvent it. There are hundreds of uploads a month.
Do you think DAZ themselves haven't considered doing such measures to stop piracy of their assets?
Stopping a clearnet filehost link from being leaked is basically impossible. Stopping a file from being reuploaded is basically impossible. That is the reason DAZ piracy sites exist. Accepting this fact will put one at peace.
The only way to actually stop links from being directly shared is through a private torrent tracker. Account IDs are tied into the hashes and the system can instantly autoban if it detects multiple unique IDs downloading the same file. This isn't a radical idea, many such trackers use this principle.
ZoneGFX is only a relay system, not the content delivery system. The supposed issue is with the delivery system which is out of the admin's control (Google, MEGA, etc). This is like trying to contain Jello with rubberbands.
Controlling the delivery system itself is the only way without resorting to a full restart -> invite only ZGFX.
I understand why some people do not want a torrent tracker system, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. All the supposed issues people are having are automatically solved with this method.
I have no desire to go back to torrenting.
It is far too slow & unreliable.
The idea is not to stop the leakage, that is futile & goes against the very nature of piracy anyway. The intent is to slow it down to a level where it does not discourage the vendors to a point where they cease making content.
Try to allow them a window to make money from a product.Try to allow them a window to make money from a product.
How much of a window and how would you work it?
Especially now, points are important.
I buy an item, just released from DAz for myself.
A side benefit is that I can "profit" by filling a request.
In some cases I am not the only one thinking like this.
If it a popular item someone else may be doing the same thing.
So the race is on!!!!!
I can count half dozen times where I have purchased an item, downloaded it,
uploaded it to bunkr, went to fill the request and found it done.When I finally purchase an iten, I do not hesitate a second or a minute.
If it is a choice bewtween my points and a vendors money.....stand clear
If this were to happen over and over to people filling requests.
The request section would lack many new items.
Greed is good!
Greed clarifies!
Greed clears things.
Green produces new requests and people that fill them
Much has been written about sharing etc. This is a piracy site, we steal.
If you look in the somewhat larger thread you will get an
idea of the makeup of the site.
A bunch of small, petulant, spoled children.
WE SHARE!!!!! Give me a break
We StealSpeaking of stealing/sharing/.
I use Bunkr, noone likes it....tough.
I am well aware of a subgroup that exists here.
I fill a request (buy the item)post it to bunkr.
People will download my bunkr file unzip it, resend
to another service and send that link to another.
Can't really do anything, saves me listening to the bitching, whining and moaning.
But
I fill a request for approximately 10 members.
Within 48 hours over 40 people have downloaded the file
I have been hosed.
I received no additional points for 30 people.
Who did? Guess.
I can do something about this (a little bit)
I post anon which means I have no obligation to keep that
link active.
I checked with a moderator and he suggested a week.
Suggested.
That is why you are seeing the suggestion to download asap.
Remember the week is a suggestion, nothing more.
If I see dozens of people downloading I will delete it.
Sharing,,,,my ass!!I understand not wanting to go to torrenting. Definitely some reasons why it's not ideal.
But speed and reliability are exactly two big advantages, not disadvantages.
One can have a tracker in addition to the current fileshare system at the same time. Many other sites online do something similar. Can even get creative with a permanent 1 week delay between tracker -> clearnet filehost upload.
P2P speeds will almost always be faster than Google or MEGA's throttling as long as we don't all live in Africa or India. Google disables file links from too much traffic. MEGA has the 5GB daily limit and easy DMCA if you falsely claim the content is of a certain type.
A torrent file cannot be taken down, and it's a fact we have some vendors here on Zone taking down products as soon as they go up. Especially for non-DAZ stuff.
Excessive leechers (i.e. those who mass download products to repost elsewhere) are forced to support the community by maintaining their seeding ratio. There is a natural bottleneck for much you take out of the pot by counting how much you put in. It is the best "points" system.
These problems aren't new. They have been solved before.
Either control and regulate the content delivery system, or keep things laissez-faire. You will never be able to create a "window" without starting over and creating a strict invite only system.
Indeed this is happening already with some discord servers I am a part of sharing only internally. But this is a short term solution, eventually deeper pockets need to be found, and the invite regulation relaxes.
At any rate, the discussion becomes cyclical. Like this wheel that needs to be reinvented I guess. 🙂
I have no desire to go back to torrenting.
It is far too slow & unreliable.
BINGO!
I don't know why people are suggesting torrents here as if they're a good option. The primary reason why I'm a share'er here is because I want direct download links. Because I'm tired of the slowness of torrents. So If I was given the option to spend 20 to 50 bucks a month on a DAZ/Rendo or whatever file and upload it to a file hosting service to have access to more content in the future, I would be 100% happy to do that. That way, I don't have to waste one of my systems to be a seed box to a bunch of leeches while also participating in a community that doesn't have the god awful waiting times for a files to download from qbit all because only one person is seeding.
Can the process and difficulty of obtaining daily points be increased to prevent a large number of bots from entering? Additionally, I once tried to post something but stopped because my poor English.
I have gotten to know some of you here reasonably well, and I like most of the discussions. I have learned so much from several of the people on this site. While this really has nothing to do with the points system and future changes, it does have a lot to do with my continuing to use this site.
As so many have noticed, no points build up; I have as well. I really enjoy the daily points rewards as it helps me. What I mean by that is I am 100% disabled, and I get a very limited income, so the few times that I am able to buy a product and share with you guys, it gets my points flowing fairly well, but in the times when I don't have enough real $ to make fills I need something that helps me get by for the items that I do want and the daily reward is that buffer for me. I hope you all understand what I am trying to say.
Please don't put an expiration on points, or I will be constantly broke (points-wise), and then the only reason for my visiting the site would be to speak with @Frank21, @Gaver, and a few other people who have given me some good advice and conversations as well.
The points system is working. If someone can figure it out, there might be something to improve it, but don't break it!
I do know some sites that leech from us, but they usually are 2 to 4 days behind us. I know it doesn't make things better as we don't get the potential traffic, but of all the sites, this one I feel is the best as we have other things that we participate in, such as a few competitions I missed (damn storm) and our blog/community is top notch compared to other sites. Let's focus on what makes us a good community and not what others are trying to snag from us, well, to an extent, anyway!
I don't know if my rambling made any sense to anyone, as I am trying to help my kids with something as well as chatting here.
I do want to say thanks to some of the staff here for the help I got when I asked for it or made a mistake and had to try to fix things, so Thanks to @anjabear Who has put forth a huge effort in helping me, with all my mistakes on here and making sure to ensure we are not getting fried for doing what we do here, @monkseye for helping to figure out what I was doing as a new member way back when, @eelgoo, @warrant63 for trying to maintain a peaceful environment on this site Also with his minimal voice (usually busy with the site) @Hunter Thanks for your time you put into this site for us.
No, I am not brown-nosing; I just know how it feels when you bust your hump and no one appreciates it!
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