Daz shoots itself in the foot (again)

[eelgoo]

Even 'Rosity seems to have given up pushing Poser.
Recently there have been staunch Poser content creators who have finally given up ( Jancory & Gray Cloud Design for example )

If they turn their attention to DS, they should make more money.

:0/

[Grouchy Old Fart]

DAZ Studio was originally created because of Poser 5.

I'll explain...

Chris Creek and Dan Farr were once employees of Zygote, and decided that maybe it was time to chase the consumer CG market that was just emerging in the late 1990s (Chris Creek was also the guy who created the dancing baby in "Ally McBeal" -a show almost everyone forgot existed.) They looked at Poser and saw potential - Zygote created the original humanoid meshes for Poser, so they were already familiar with it. So, this spinoff little company, "Digital Art Zone", created a few meshes that worked in Poser (not just the original Vicky and Mike, but figures like "Nude Young Woman" and such) and sold them. At the time, Poser had just been raised from the dead, with a new company called curious Labs having bought it (and Bryce, RayDream, Canoma) from the dying MetaCreations.

DAZ got very successful at selling just content, to the point where nobody bothered with the default Poser figures anymore. Curious Labs, the then-owner of Poser was happy with this, as well as with its other flagship product, Bryce (remember that one?)

The arrangement was cozy... until Poser 5 came out. Curious Labs added a few new features to it (dynamic hair, the Face Room, and such), but decided they wanted to sell licenses to use these new features. DAZ, whose entire business model relied on Poser, did not like this new licensing demand in the slightest. Between that and the economic Dot-Bust which was raging at the time, DAZ decided that they needed a life insurance policy.

That policy began to take shape from 2002-2003, they saw that it was faster and in many ways superior to Poser 5, and so it was released as a public beta in 2005 as DAZ Studio (the same year Vicky 4 came out). The user interface was built like that of Moda (the industry sweet hotness at the time), and the code was almost perfectly portable between the Windows and Mac platforms at the time (C++ for the backend and Qt libraries for the UI).

DAZ made the decision to go full guns with it sometime in 2003-2004, because Poser was being bounced from company to company, and its future was highly uncertain (Curious Labs got acquired by the German company EGISys, then EGISys went under, then the Japanese company e-Frontier bought it, then sold it to Smith Micro...) The instability was enough to convince DAZ to get DAZ Studio up and running as a product.

DAZ Studio always had the alternate (and let's face it, much better) rigging and shader systems built-in, but still kept compatibility with Poser content to make customer transition easier.

/ Part 1

[Grouchy Old Fart]

/Part 2

Poser does have some redeeming features about it, but until Poser Pro 2010 (?) all the Poser stuff worked just fine with DAZ Studio, and DS was free (as in $0), so it just made sense to stick with DS.

Time marches on, though.

I hope something like DAZ Studio gets married to AI to make producing art more intuitive and simple, but a few things will hamper it, I think.

- First, the pr0n crowd will hate it the moment they realize how it currently works. Any pervs out there with working neurons will be (or at least should be) uncomfortable with LLM AI sharing their fetishes with the entire Internet (albeit maybe-anonymously) before they even have a final render for themselves.

- Second, the pace of advancement means you might not be able to keep the characters you've developed for very long (and not just because of persistence issues as I'd mentioned before). Also, those characters will soon cease to be only yours, as they become seeds for someone else's image generations.

- Third, I foresee an eventual convergence of 'looks', where a few mediocre faces and a few hybrid physiognomies become the norm for everyone as a result - much like what happens when you dump a bunch of paint from every conceivable color into a buck and stir... it always ends up being some shade of gray. That thought scares me.

It does have promise, though. Just that it may take awhile.

[Frank21]

A wonderful history lesson GOF, thanks, I never knew half of that.
You would be aware that some here believe there will be no DS5, probably because it's been years since it was first announced.

As for DAZ Studio getting married to AI, it doesn't necessarily mean that images made with the LLM would be public. Like Stable Diffusion there may be downloadable LMMs that can be used off-line requiring no open web connection, so any characters/images you make will remain private. In fact if DS was to become "spyware" I think it would lose a large percentage of it's user-base. I currently use a local install of SD because I detest omnipresent data harvesting.

The trend with AI generative art isn't towards sameness, quite the opposite. It's very attraction is in the the wide variety of images it can produce, and the wide variety of resources available to do that. If I want sameness I can go to the Daz store for that.

We are only talking speculation here so anything may eventuate. When/if DS5 comes out it better be good if they want to survive, but Daz's record with their previous changes doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

[Grouchy Old Fart]

I'm actually not holding out too much hope for there being a DS 5 (and if there is, I'd be surprised it it were anything more than a glorified point release with some niche neat-o 3rd-party thing bolted onto it.)

They did have (and maybe still do have) some tricks up their sleeve that we didn't (don't) know about. Sometimes those tricks are bangers (collision, SubD), and sometimes they look great but fizzle (pre-dForce dynamic clothing items, and the Filament renderer.)

It'd be neat if they did it, though.

Good to know about the private library option for Stable Diffusion - never knew about that... though how big is it disk-wise for a working but moderately-wide-variety set?

[Frank21]

After one year my SD folder is 69GB.... about 20 base models, 200 Loras/embeddings, Kohya and the SD prog itself. (My DS library was about 10x that size.) I think that would be moderate compared to some I've seen. Like with DS/Poser I only DL a bare minimum for what I need and delete stuff that doesn't work the way I thought it would.
I also have a backup of all that on another drive, just in case.

[Ethiopia]

Thanks @pooper for that info. I've read it before somewhere (here maybe?) but failed to keep the notes. This time I copied it to a file I'll keep track of.
I remember some of those sales of Poser and kept hoping that whoever had it THIS TIME would finally fix it but no one did.
It's also my understanding that Nerd 3D (whatever his real name is) is the only original member of the Poser crew still with it.

[Stahlratte]

I'm using Poser since Poser 4, and for 99% of the time it has been rock solid for me.

I'm still using Poser 11 (Even though I own 12 & 13), because I still regularly use Python 2 scripts.
The interface has gotten quite flexible over the last 24 years, so there's really not much left in my current setup that could remind one of the old Kai Krause interface.
(I recently re-installed Studio, but I get confused easily by all the "nested" folders and its Runtime structure. Lol. But of course Studio's interface is quite flexible, too, so I'm sure with a little effort I can make it more to my liking.)

The current Poser rigging tools and the Morphbrush give me full control over my characters.
I actually have 20- years old characters that bend just as nice as G8 or G9 do.
(I'd be happy to proof that, but I don't know how to add a picture here?) 🙁

I also much prefer the instant feedback I get from using the Morphbrush as opposed to using ZBrush or another external modeller to do new sculpts
(I even used the Morphbrush to create HD morphs in the past)

I tried ZBrush 1, it was nice, but once they redesigned the UI, I simply couldn't keep up with its complexity.

But keep in mind I'm NOT into all-out photoralism. I actually LIKE the typical Poser style for artistic reasons. I don't even use Superfly. (Which is obsolete already, anyway)

And yes, I also think that AI can quickly add a type of "sameness" to your artwork.
So I'd rather stay THIS side of the "uncanny valley"-

The "open" Poser file format also allows me to hack and slack directly into a .cr2 file and to easily fix problems. (I'm a tinkerer at heart, I guess) 😉

Studio was always much more "locked up", more strictly dividing it's user base into "Published Artists" and "mere Users".
All the "good stuff" was out of reach for the average hobbyist, like the HD tools still are.

(In the beginning, Studio couldn't actually rig. You literally could only use it to load a pre-made figure, morph and pose it of course, and then render. No way to really modify that figure's proportions and rigging, except through scaling, which often looked weird.
Anyone remember THE GRIM for Michael 2? DAZ had to even issue a standalone cr2 to accomodate for his smaller shoulders)

Studio PRO tried to change all that with new weightmapping rigging tools, but it was quite expensive when it was introduced!
I still bought it, only to be quickly stabbed in the back by the DAZ crew, when they made the rigging tools completely FREE a short time after.

Then Poser introduced weightmapping, too, and I never looked back.

But of course, if a programm doesn't work well on the type of equipment you use, and the support is less then knowledgeable, I can completely understand the frustration!
(I'm using W10 and W11 as well as ACER gaming laptops)

I tried out Studio several times, but it never "clicked" with me the way Poser did.

I know, you guys have all the fun now, but again, my ambitions are not that high in the first place anymore.
For what I try to achieve, Poser 11 works perfectly fine for my. 🙂

But I completely agree about LaFemme and LaHomme.
These figures a patently horrible. Very poor mesh design, very poor rigging and at least the default faces are butt-ugly, even in-human looking.
Whoever sculpted them, truly hates the human form I guess, or simply should try another job.

Anyway, I decided to keep using Poser 11 to tinker around with my vintage figures.
It would be great to have direct acccess to all the Genesis goodies, but I doubt it'll ever happen.

I still would like to see a Studio 5 someday, and check out what it brings to the table.

But'ts all good as long as we all can have fun with our little virtual dollies! 😉

[Ethiopia]

I bought (paid with real money) Poser 11 because I wanted to get into making and selling clothes for good old V4 (who is still my main figure in Studio).
It crashed. I took it to work and loaded it on the two workstations and it crashed and/or locked up.
I complained bitterly to Rendo (I think it was Rendo back then) and they said wait for the first update. I did and it was no better. Four updates over the first year made no difference and I vehemently demanded my money back for their shit-ass program. Of course they refused and I cursed them bitterly and even threatened them. This got me banned. I went into the forums under different logins and cursed/threatened that Jen bitch and whoever else I could get a name for.

Studio has gotten worse over the years and isn't what it started out to be. Still, for me, Studio's worse day is worlds better than Poser's best day...for me.

And no, we'll never see a Studio 5, it's just smoke and mirrors by the greedy and short sighted Tafi borg.
If Poser would add support for the Daz format, even just mention it, I'm sure Daz/Tafi would go ballistic and get serious about a real upgrade. As it is they have few devs left anymore.

[Stahlratte]

Ethiopia, I totally believe you.
I also had programs that just wouldn't work on my machine, no matter what.

BTW, I had to pay for Poser 11 twice because Rendo botched up the changeover of the license server.
Then Poser 13 was released, I had to buy Poser 12 first, because Rendo wouldn't allow me to upgrade from Poser 11 directly-
Then a few weeks later, they DID allow a direct upgrade!

But did I get my $$$ back? Hell, no!

As I said, I was quite lucky with Poser over the years, BUT...

I recently installed PP-2014 and DAZ Studio as well as DSON again, to create a Poser compatible copy of Genesis 3.

Genesis and G2 & DSON used to work quite well with PP-2014, but while I was able to LOAD and POSE the Genesis, G2 and G3 figures in Poser 11, the moment I deleted said figure or the scene containing the figure, Poser 11 crashed to desktop!

I then just exported the object file, re-grouped it and adapted a V4 skeleton to them.
A very primitive hack, but at least it worked! 😉

*

BTW, I'm currently on my third "identity" over at Rendo.
They really don't like hearing any criticism over there.

😉

[Stahlratte]

Actually, it would be really easy to make a "Genesis style" figure for Poser.
(Perhaps even based on the G8 or G8 mesh!)

Importe the base mesh, then load all morphs and check "match centers to morph" for every morph you import.
The rigging will auto-adapt to the new shape.
Best of all even the clothing will auto-adapt, just like in Studio!

Some Genesis features need to be adapted or created using different techniques. (No geografting in Poser. But you can switch complete bodyparts without problems instead. Even add addditional ones!)

DAZ vendors then could adapt their original G8 and G9 content with just a few modifications for the Poser customer base.

If both Poser and DAZ wanted, they could easily create a Poser compatible Genesis!

But I say this without anger: DAZ has us Poser users where it hurts, so why should they nurture Poser back to life?

[ulysses]

If DAZ would meld an upgraded Hexagon into DS natively, they might have something. That seems to be a relatively easy upgrade. Instead, they haven't updated Hex in years and keep making minor changes to DS with often break things. DAZ seems to be taking the microsoft windows strategy.

[Grouchy Old Fart]

@stahlratte ,

I do miss the ability to simply pop open a file in a text editor and make changes, not gonna lie. It was one of the things about Poser I actually loved, mostly because it allowed me to save a file that would've otherwise been beyond saving.

As for the directory layouts, it took me a little bit to sort it, mostly because I hung onto V4 and Poser content (even in DS) for years after DS released. However, once I began to organize things, I realized that the answer to the DS directory layout is this: Aside from the package contents of /data and /runtime , you can put everything else anywhere you want under /Content (or previously, /My Library). I organize my stuff manually to make it all easy to get at quickly, and once I got into that rhythm, I realized that don't want to go back.

(...looking back, the biggest peeve w/ Poser that I had was the directory layout. For instance, hair was sometimes a character, sometimes a prop, and sometimes a proper Poser Hair file - and all the different colors for that hair bit were in /pose, or /material, and you had to find out which.)

I do agree that the daz file format can be a pain, though, especially since the SDK allows a vendor to encrypt the file or script (it can be cracked, but doing so takes more time and effort than it's worth.) I wish they would've just tacked in a Python interpreter (or at least exposed ot to Python and bundled the latest version of it as an option) instead of writing their own limited Java-flavored scripting thing. I understand why they did it, but I don't like it. Python (esp. with the math-friendly and fast numpy and pandas libraries) could do a lot more CG-wise in DS if they would just make the leap.

1000% agreed on LaFemme/L'Homme. I realize they needed to break away from using the same revamped Zygote/DAZ mesh they've used for decades, but they should've hired a professional to do it, instead of relying on a hobbyist-cum-vendor. They should've also hired freelance pros to make a basic set of clothing, hair, and textures for the things as well. The one thing DAZ did extremely well (<- note past tense!) was to launch a figure built by pros and then build top-quality stuff to go with it for its initial launch. Not sure what happened with G9, though it does have some redeeming features about it that now keeps me pushing for it.

(...and in a way, my inability to faithfully transfer older mesh characters to G9 is sort of like how Cortez burned his ships when he landed in the New World during the 16th Century. It forces one to get creative... but maybe that's just Stockholm Syndrome on my part 😀 .)

regarding: "But I say this without anger: DAZ has us Poser users where it hurts, so why should they nurture Poser back to life?"

I agree partially. Rendo/Bondware could circumvent that with one trick: Instead of relying on DAZ for content, why not load Blender content and materials/shaders natively in Poser? There's almost as much Blender stuff as there is DAZ stuff by now.

@frank22 ,

That's not as big as I thought it would be... I expected multi GB single packages and a multi-TB library (and yes, you;re right - my main DS content directory is ~1TB in size, mostly because I just recently pulled my head out of my ass and started building a new content directories - e.g. for Genesis 9 - to keep things easier to copy and back up.)

I already work with AI at work, but I may start toying with it at home.

@ethiopia ,

Ditto - if Poser (Renderosity owns it now?) started making noises about being compatible with DAZ content, the entire state of Utah would have a fire lit under its ass. FYI though, Poser 11 was a Smith Micro thing, if memory serves.

As for making an app work or not, I don't think I've ever had an app go too unstable on me since 2000 or so.

@ulysses ,

Hexagon is a permanent afterthought, mostly because DAZ/Tafi owns Cararra (formerly RayDream). No idea if they've updated it or anything in the past 10-15 years, though.

I agree that an integrated mesh editor would make things far more powerful; instead they seem to rely on the old dForm and Mesh Grabber plugins.

[Ethiopia]

Hexagon has NOT been updated in the slightest and if you want an example of unstable?...give it a go. I see the occasional complaint about this in their forums.

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